For those who’ve lived in both Europe and the USA, I would like to hear your take. What do you love about each place, and what drawbacks have you noticed? Whether it’s the Old World charm of Europe or the dynamic lifestyle in the USA, spill the beans. In the end, what was the game-changer that made you pick one over the other and if you could share the decision-making behind your preferred choice.
You can get rich in America a lot faster than in Europe, generally speaking, provided you plan ahead (for example, healthcare and insurance).
Americans can always find ways to make money (sometimes a lot) by doing just about anything, from reading Tarot cards to working overtime. There’s much less of that in Europe. Less dire poverty in Europe, but if you’re a hardworking professional, the state takes half or more of your earnings if you include all taxes and fees. You’re expected to trust that the government has your best interests at heart.
Europe has pedestrian culture (walkable cities), better safety, and arguably more amenities like museums and art galleries, but the expectation is that you work until retirement and then get a modest pension.
You have to hope that your pension will be enough. My colleague from Netherlands keeps telling me about how their parents have an insufficient pension despite working good jobs their whole lives. The state expects them to sell the house and downsize to something smaller. If they had lived in the US, and invested in even simple index funds, they’d be lightyears ahead of where they are financially at 65+.
In the long-term, I’d rather be independently wealthy (passive income enough to pay my expenses so working is optional) than living in a welfare state. I understand the benefits of European social democracy, but once you starting earning a professional salary, it becomes disappointing to see how much of your money is misspent. When you’re working class or a student, the system is great.
You have to be in the top 10% of salaries in the US to really see the difference of less taxes. I think for most people Northern Europe is better than America.
You have to be in the top 10% of salaries in the US to really see the difference of less taxes
that’s just not true at all. if you compare germany and france vs the US, someone making 67% of the average in the respective countries, the european will pay about 15% more of their income in labor taxes (before accounting for VAT!)
https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-brochure.pdf
Or self employed.
I’m a dual American/Swedish citizen. Grew up in the states but been in Sweden the past 7 years. I can say virtually most things are better in Europe but the US felt more fun and exciting to me. I miss the nature where I’m from also, but Europe has many beautiful places obviously as well.
I mean, Sweden is not known to be fun and exciting lol
Exactly
The constant grenade attacks make it fun!
I’m just here to follow this cuz I wanna know too. I’m Canadian expat currently 8 yrs in USA. I have southern France/ Spain/ Portugal on my mind.
Also Canadian expat 8 years in USA, my husband is French so we have some vague plans to go to France at some point when we have kids. I miss my family in Canada so much but my job here in the USA is so awesome 😬😅 Hard to give up.
Mixed bag. I found my eurolike American dream and now struggling to find a comparable high quality European option. People in Europe are a lot harder to connect to. It is a lot safer, better for kids, and travel is much more accessible though.
Can you say a bit more about your eurolike American dream? Very curious about what you’ve managed to find and create for yourself in the states.
I basically found a place in the US where I can bike and walk and not use a car. Ironically, now that I am back in Europe, I am a bit more car dependent and a lot of the people are so excited about gated communities and using cars everywhere.
I actually find it quite similar. For me, Europe is a mix of socialism and a peculiar isolation, but it comes with the advantage of safety (both in society and from a career perspective), along with beautiful landscapes and travel opportunities. I appreciate the minimalist mentality of Europeans, although it can sometimes be a bit overwhelming for my personal taste. On the other hand, I find Americans to be more easygoing, easier to connect with, and generally friendlier. The weather and language, of course, earn points for the US. Overall, earnings and job opportunities are much higher in the US, but Europe has a better social welfare system. I would say that if you have no kids, the US is probably a better option. Additionally, I think Americans are more aligned with the mindset of immigration, making it easier to blend into society.
What do you mean by „minimalist mentality“?
Compared to Americans, Europeans (Germans, Dutch, French, and Belgians, based on my experience) tend to spend less money on material possessions and things like home renovations. Instead, they allocate more of their spending towards experiences, such as traveling and well being. Also they save a lot more and engage in less consumerism. In general, I’ve found both sides to be somewhat extreme, with exceptions, of course.
This is an awesome aspect- I’m American but think like this . I hate the suburban American lifestyle of keeping with the jones with a big house and suv etc - I’d rather travel and have experiences.
less consumerism I suppose
I agree with you. I find European cultures, architecture, nature, history, slow lifestyle awesome, but there is lot more generational trauma and sort of closed mentality towards others. I found people more jealous, men more animalistic, women are treated as garbage (this is true in most places, but I find the European societies even more outdated then say Canada).
Safer is a bit of a lie, there is terrorist attacks and stabbings all over Europe.
There are parts of America where there is no crime
I used to drive to work in Orlando. There was almost a shooting or murder a day. A coworker witnessed a murder at the gas pump. There are so many, it doesn’t make national news. If someone gets killed in remote parts of wales, we hear about it on national news. I assume because it’s so rare.
spill the beans
well one disadvantage is that it is much harder to get refried beans in europe
And tortillas and a dam good burrito. I will admit, I discovered a place with amazing tacos in London that I go there every time I fly to the UK named Tacos Padre, that’s up there with west coast tacos—not lying.
U.K. has a few Mexican food places. Tortilla is alright, and another that escapes me at the moment (never been a big fan). I do miss the cheese dip and free nachos at Mexican restaurants in the SE US though.
I’m a dual US/EU citizen who grew up in the States and now lives in Europe. I get jealous of how much money my American friends make, and sometimes think they’re “ahead” of me in terms of career trajectory since they make more than I do (I’m from NYC) and I chose to live in a lower-income EU country.
But, I live a full life here in Spain. There is nothing like strolling through old streets, admiring the architecture, drinking in the plazas with friends, taking weekend trips across the country etc. Spanish people spend a lot of time outside in third spaces and it really creates a unique kind of community I could never find in the US.
I never have to think about gun crime, I have full access to healthcare because I pay for it through my contributions, I can take public transport anywhere I want, and I have tons of friends. It’s nice to live in a country where no one gives a fuck about anything except friends, family, and enjoyment for the sake of enjoyment. There is no undercurrent of anxiety and stress here that exists in the US. I can walk home across the city at 4AM and nothing will happen to me except bumping into old people going for a stroll, which I could never do in Philly, NYC, or Miami when I lived there. Everyday I’m thankful for my freedom of movement and that I have an entire continent to explore and have full, unrestricted access to work or study in 31 countries.
I cannot see myself living back in the US, but I do worry about the fact that the job market across Europe is really bad and I will never, ever in my lifetime have as much financial freedom as my American peers with whom I grew up. My career growth and trajectory will never be as strong or as promising as it would be had I stayed in the US, especially since I went to a good university. I still choose to be in Europe.
Worst aspects of Europe for me: low salaries, getting paid once a month, lack of career growth, cost of utilities, increasing car dependency, the job market is very territorial by language.
Fair enough. The income differences around Europe are huge though. Im from the UK by birth, moved to the Netherlands about a decade ago.
Im a doctor and the NHS is nothing but horrible. Dutch wages for medical staff can compete with American incomes. However my liability insurance is €300 a year…
On top of that I work 3-4 a week. Unheard of in the UK and US.
This is my dream.
getting paid once a month,
Whats the downside of this? Maybe i am overlooking something because i never knew anything else. But seems its the same amount of money either way.
This was quite interesting to read, as an European who is about to move to Spain.
I will never, ever in my lifetime have as much financial freedom as my American peers with whom I grew up
Yes and no. You won’t be able to afford to buy as much stuff but you can start a small business much more easily or work part time or do consulting or contract work and keep your health insurance. I’m in the US now making into the 6-figures but I have no flexibility at all. it’s work 40hrs a week 48 weeks a year or bust. And then I see people going bankrupt anyway after an illness and I wonder why bother?
Also the cost of living has gone insane in the last three years. If you left before 2019 it’s hard to understand how completely insane it is here now. And its everywhere, even formerly lcol areas are nuts.
Many many Americans spend $3-5k a month on health insurance, childcare and student loans before even addressing the traditional costs like housing, food or utilities. It’s a CRAZY amount.
It’s not that difficult getting health insurance as a freelancer unless business is slow. You just pay for it on your own via the marketplace and account for it as a business expense when charging clients.
If anything, the US is actually one of the easiest places in the world to start your own small business and work independently. There’s a reason we’re the startup capital of the world.
Totally agree with the part on Xenophobia. As a non-white person, finding a good job is more difficult in Europe compared to the United States.
I have come to understand that there will be racism everywhere I live outside Africa. So why not rather experience it at a place where I am getting paid better due to my qualification (PhD)?.
I have come to understand that there will be racism everywhere I live outside Africa.
There’s no shortage of racism inside Africa either.
On your last point, it’s absolutely possible to do remote work for American companies through something called professional employment organization (PEO). There’s been a proliferation since Covid and because of programmers. They are registered in the country and do your taxes and paperwork, your employer has to pay an extra fee and contract you through them.
You are then legally an employee of the PEO who invoices their us client (your old employer).
I feel it’s too easy to generalize Europe as a whole. The job market is Spain might not be good, but in The Netherlands its very good.
Salaries in London will be on par with what you earn in NYC.
States in the states still are all part of the same system. In Europe the contrast between some countries couldn’t be bigger.
Salaries in London will be more on par with what you earn in NYC.
Salaries in London aren’t even on par with affordable US cities unless you are referring to unskilled jobs like checkout operator, janitor, etc.
Yeah, Zürich, by contrast has higher average salaries than NYC
Depends on what aspect of the job market. Availability of jobs is one thing, gross wages another, even in relatively wealthy countries like the Netherlands and Germany. These are a lot lower compared to US metro areas. A lot of the difference is spent on housing, but if that difference is mainly in paying down an expensive mortgage, it does mean building a lot of equity over time.
Can’t argue with any of the points you made.
The only thing truly stopping me from moving to Spain (my Spanish partner wants nothing more than for me to but his idea of it isn’t realistic) is that I’d be giving up my voucher in NYC. 🫤
Sorry what’s a voucher in NYC?
I’m living in Spain too! From Jersey
I like Germany and think it’s better than the US in a lot of ways for example the work culture, walkable cities, safety, EU food regulations, etc. BUT one thing I find frustrating about it here is the lack of full acceptance. I will never be considered part of the “in group”. I’ll always be the American guy. Even if I speak perfect German, get citizenship, and take part in all of the cultural traditions. The same can be said for anyone who grows up here if both parents aren’t ethnically German. I’ve met lots of people who grew up in Germany and have one parent from another country and they talk about how they aren’t considered German by society. Due to my American upbringing I find that sad and don’t want that for my daughter so I’m always on the fence about leaving here.
Also I miss the sun. It’s something I never thought of living in the states but November to March is depressing when almost everyday is cloudy, rainy, or snowy (though I do love those days).
Salaries for my field are better in the US as well.
Born and raised in the US, lived in the Netherlands 12 years. Money is an issue often brought up by Americans. We pay a lot of taxes here but get a lot back for that too. Public transportaion is awesome. Infrastrucure is very good. Everything works and is properly maintained. City services are amazing. If you call a city or national department, someone answers the phone and answers your question. Cycling infrastructure is second to none. You can walk everywhere. Don’t need a car. No violent crime. No guns.
It’s flat and rainy in the winter. I miss the nature in the US. Americans are friendlier, but the big expat communities here provide endless opportunities for friendship. Nothing i miss enough to entice me to move back.
Final word, here it’s peaceful as opposed to chaotic in the US.
Im British, moved to the Netherlands a decade ago. Love it here. My income is a LOT higher here. (About 450-500% more). So it covers easily for the higher taxes.
Everything just works. Its amazing.
Had an all-commission sales gig in the US so I earned a lot more there. But expenses were also much higher. American culture is designed to extract as much as possible from your bank account. Bought an apartment in Den Haag for far less than it would cost in the US. Mortgage is consequently much cheaper.
9 weeks vacation? I wish that was the standard in NL.
I had 6 weeks to begin with, but as I got older I got more. Last 2 or 3 years before retirement it was 9 weeks.
Pro for the US:
- You can make a lot of money… If you are willing to put up with the toxic work culture
- They have good mexican food
- The wilderness they have. Very jealous of that.
Cons:
- The rest
Cons for “Europe” (I am from here, no need to tell me it’s not a single country xD)
- They do not have good mexican food
- You make less money than in the US (though - in Luxembourg and Switzerland you can make bank)
Pros
- The rest
I find so strange that top point of the US is Mexican food, but hey, I also agree
I am a European asperger and to me it’s hard concentrate on some aspects. Which makes life in US unbrearable. Like :
- seeing prices in malls without VAT. I want to calculate my expenses near to one cent. I would go mad to do rocket science every day I do shopping. I want to know PRECISELY if I’ll pay 30 dollars or euros or 31 or 29. Sometimes I go shopping with 30 euros in my pocket and I want to fit in it. When the cashier tells me it’s 30,31 it’s a heartstroke.
- the same about tips. I don’t want to leave any fucking tip. A tip is to me an extraordinary prividge I give to someone serving me if I think service was really efficient and cool. I prefer to eat in an expensive restaurant and pay no tip than in a poor restaurant paying tips. Besides, I think tip culture is really slavery cautioned by social norms.
- US is to me diehard KKK against cretin woke playgound. Fight me. I don’t need this toxicity - neither on a side, neither on the other. I just want NOT MINDING about such things as race, sex, gender, and shit like this, I want to be free to live my life and respect and love all people forgetting details, concentrating on what and who they are, not the color of their ass or how offended they are.I just want NOT MINDING about such things as race, sex, gender, and shit like this
The most racist discussions I’ve ever seen was in Europe though.
Dual US/UK citizen. I grew up in US from 5-40, now live in the U.K. with my 5 kids and wife. There was a time in the 80-90’s where the US was the better place to raise a family. This changed sometime in the last 20-25 years. I get 5.6 weeks off, health care is free at the point of use, and there is an actual social safety net. Now all of this is important to me now. However, I believe that someone single and in their 20’s would probably be happier on the US. It’s just not great for raising a family there.
The odd thing is, that although I technically earn less in the UK, I have far more disposable income then I didn’t in the US. I was on low six figures when I left.
Oddly, my wife gave me 5 years when we moved. Now she’s doesn’t want to go back. I think it’s because the old adage; in the US people live to work, in U.K. it’s work to live.
I currently live back in the US. I love Europe for the architecture, good public services, food and culture, but somehow I always feel stifled there. I am just more free to be myself in the US. You can be anybody you want to be and nobody really cares. One small example is bumper stickers. They might not say it, but Europeans think you’re weird if you have them, and while they are less common than they used to be, they’re kind of unremarkable in the States. I don’t even have bumper stickers but I like the fact that I could have them if I were so inclined and nobody would bat an eyelash. I move frequently so even in the US, I’m not a local, but as others have said, you are never truly accepted in Europe unless you are a native. Americans are just more accepting of people’s differences. Although political polarization is definitely becoming the exception to that tolerance.
Everyone already summarised pretty much the differences. I was born in the US and raised there but am a dual EU citizen and have spent the last 4 years in Germany. The taxes can be very hard to stomach here, even with a high salary. You trade financial independence in the US for slower pace of life in Europe. You’ll always be foreigner in Germany though even when fluent in language and ties to community, that’s probably the worst part other than the slow and excessive bureaucracy.
The taxes can be very hard to stomach here, even with a high salary.
I’d say especially with a high salary. The more you make, the more you’re punished. Sometimes I feel that’s why the US economy is more innovative, because there isn’t much incentive to work hard in places like Germany (by comparison).
Oh the US is definitely more innovative. It comes at a cost, obviously. The US is a dog eat dog world.
The US is a dog eat dog world.
Absolutely, I left when (among other reasons) I didn’t want to be part of the “move up or move out” mentality anymore.
You’ll always be foreigner in Germany
I suppose that’s even harder if you’re not white.
My heart belongs to Europe, 100%. I’ve been very ill and disabled since childhood, I couldn’t afford my medications in the USA, just one essential medication was 2.000 USD per month.
So that was the primary reason I left. There are others, like:
the human rights violations committed by the American state, domestically and abroad,
and the mass shootings.
and the apparent reluctance to acknowledge, much less prepare for, climate change in some circles.
and the lack of abortion rights.
and how shite the American public education can be, and how expensive private education can be.
It’s possible Trump could get elected POTUS.
Etc, etc., etc. I don’t want to raise my kid there for a plethora of reasons.
I love how dynamic, open-hearted and fun Americans are, and of course the USA contains many natural wonders. I don’t dislike America or Americans at all, this isn’t personal.
But life in Norway is better by pretty much every metric, so I’m staying put here.
I’m actually staying in America for medical reasons I would never get the quantity and quality of medical care I need where my family is in Europe
USA (NY) Pluses: Central Park, the Met, free concerts (Central Park Summerstage), Shakespeare in the park, Upper West Side, great jazz scene, black/Latino culture, excellent (unhealthy) food, vibrant ethnic scenes.
Germany (Rheinland-Pfalz, BW and Bavaria): more polite than NY, neutral news reporting, ease of travel to EU countries, excellent (healthy) food, hiking and camping, clean and safe public transit, free university, adorable villages.
Game Changer/Dealbreaker: health insurance, safety, lack of crime/gun violence, more democratic, fair elections, cost of living is lower, life quality is higher due to vacation time and perks… and lastly, after the horrors of GW Bush, I thought it could not go lower. I was wrong. Donald Jackass Trump and his cronies have ruined things for me.