I’ve read this sub and have seen so many similar comparisons but thought my background may be slightly different than others.
I am a Japanese native and have been in Tokyo for the last 10 years, but also lived in other parts of Asia and the US throughout my childhood.
I find Tokyo depressing, stagnant, lacking diversity and nature, questionable work life balance and isolated from the world.
I get paid well as I work in fintech and not for a Japanese company, so I know I am better off than others here but would like to move out soon.
My options are New York or London through my current job. I would definitely need to negotiate my salary but what would be a better option given the following;
I’m planning to move with my partner who is in IT and a small black Shiba dog. We do not plan to have children. I don’t see this as a permanent move though things may change.
Things that I would prioritise -vacation days -parks, any green areas -ease of travelling -dog friendlyness -ease of getting a masters -ease of job hunting if necessary -diversity in food, including groceries
Things I’m concerned about -safety -rent -weather -making friends -cleanliness -work culture
I’m well aware of what is said about the two cities but I want to know how bad is it “actually”.
You have already received a lot of good and honest opinions here so I will not repeat that but personally I think I would not pick NY/London over Tokyo.
The good stuff that could be on offer in both of those cities doesn’t outweigh things that only Tokyo can offer. It’s a compromise.
I will only add a couple of things that really stand out to me:
-
Both NY/London have nice areas to live in that are expensive. Check what would be in your budget. It’s not worth moving if you end up living in rougher parts of any city. To me this is visible especially in London where you can walk down the street and you will experience a completely different standard and safety of the area.
-
To echo and highlight a very important point made here: the food scene in London is tragic. Coming from Tokyo you will be surprised how bad it is here. It’s either Michelin star restaurants or nothing at all if you really value food and service. Dining out feels mostly like a waste of time and money here.
-
Parks and dogs: London has a problem now with aggressive breeds of dogs and their owners. You can meet them anywhere and most often people who own these dogs don’t really know how to handle them.
Yes, London wins in terms of green space within the city but in my opinion it’s much easier to get outside from Tokyo and experience nature and smaller towns.
If you think that London parks are there for you to enjoy the weekend and tourist crowd will quickly prove you otherwise. London parks are a tourist attraction and rarely a place for a leisure walk with your dog. Unless it’s weekdays.
-
Salaries are much lower in London and it is fairly easy to arrive at the limit of what could be offered. There is a point where you feel quite limited by lack of opportunity. Not the same story in NY.
-
In London you don’t feel you get what you pay for in terms of taxes. Health, transport, safety - these leave a lot to be desired in comparison to Tokyo.
-
To truly enjoy London you usually have to do it on weekdays. People tend to take days off just to go to restaurants they wanted to book for ages or do some actual shopping.
Since a lot of the entertainment/hospitality business is very central you end up in very crowded and noisy space. Both NY and Tokyo are more spread out in that sense. Local boroughs have got lots to offer whereas in London it often feels dead when you leave zone 1/2.
When it comes to this part - Tokyo is the best.
- Right now London feels a bit stagnant and directionless. After Brexit and Covid many things have changed here for the worse. I don’t feel it gives enough opportunity and quality of leisure to outweigh high cost of living. The standard just feels lower in comparison to NY and Tokyo and the future - uncertain. If you have great career prospects it’s a place you migrate from not to as of now.
I understand your perspective and your frustration with Tokyo but personally I would pick what it offers over NY and London. Especially London will feel boring and stagnant.
I live in London and have visited Tokyo and New York. I agree with most of this post. If I was going to emigrate to a new city, it needs to be worth the hassle and opportunity cost. London is at best an equal or worse city than Tokyo, so it’s far off the desired standard that would be worth migrating to from Tokyo.
I would +1 the comments about nature. The public parks are too busy. The green neighborhood spaces people talk about are for private communities (people who bought houses 20+ years ago).
If nature was my concern, I’d prefer to live in Tokyo where you can bullet train to stunning hikes and even go skiing
-
Skip both.
Where would you pick instead?
I’m American but live in London. For the majority of the things you listed that you prioritise, London nearly always comes out on top. Here’s my take having lived here for nearly 7 years.
London pros:
- Work life balance / vacation days - most people get 25-30 days annual leave + 10 bank holidays.
- Parks / green space - London is significantly more green and there are a number of large parks spread across the city. The countryside is also more accessible via public transportation. You can take some tube lines to the end and there’s trailheads from the station.
- Ease of traveling - London is better situated geographically and has 6 easily accessible airports. Quick and cheap flights are common to Europe and Eurostar is also a great option. If you’re wanting to go back home to Japan, those long haul flights will also be a bit quicker and cheaper than from NYC.
- Ease of getting a master’s - UK definitely. I got my master’s here and it was significantly cheaper and quicker than doing it in the US (they’re typically only 1 year).
- Safety - London is more safe both from a statistical standpoint and also from a perception standpoint. Less random crazies on the street or public transportation, mental health is taken more seriously, and there’s not nearly as big of an opioid crisis. And of course essentially no gun violence (police don’t even carry guns).
- Cleanliness - From the streets to the public transport, London is MUCH cleaner hands down. I’ve lived here nearly 7 years and have never seen a cockroach, never seen a rat (though mice are common), and the city just feels significantly less grimy than NYC.
NYC pros:
- Salary - you will definitely make more in the NYC than in London, particularly for tech. Salary will be higher and taxes lower. However COL is higher in NYC (particularly for rent, groceries and travel) so it could even out.
- IT - while it’s still not the Bay Area, the NYC tech scene feels more accessible and vibrant. My and my partner work in tech here in London and the market feels like it’s continued to stagnate. Redundancies are still very common, companies downsizing, and the overall feel in the market is pessimistic.
- Diversity of food - NYC wins on eating out. In NYC you can get literally any world cuisine and it will likely be decent to amazing. London falls short on this, particularly for South American and East Asian cuisine (it’s just not that good here and selection is nowhere near as big as NYC). However London groceries are significantly cheaper and higher quality.
Toss ups:
- Weather - this is very personal so it really spends on what you appreciate. London is fairly moderate year round with mild seasons. In the winter it rarely goes below freezing and rarely snows. In the summer it’s moderate though we’ve been having some heatwaves the past few years. It’s often grey and overcast which is the real downside. It actually rains more in NYC in terms of precipitation amount, however London has more overall days of rain. Also NYC summers are notoriously hot and humid which requires AC for months on end.
- Making friends. Both are huge cities with lots of transient people. I would say Americans are slightly more easy to befriend on the surface. But London is so international that the expat community groups are strong and robust.
- Dog culture - no idea as I don’t have a dog but I’d imagine pretty similar between the two cities.
Btw, on the food point, I happen to agree a lot with this author Why British food is terrible:
- Cooking is a creative endeavor, and this society is too repressed to express emotions through their food.
- People here drink to socialize (because they need alcohol to open up). Food is always an afterthought.
This raises some excellent points, though I’m surprised Japan hasn’t gone down the same route considering our society too is repressed and people need drinks to socialise. I definitely appreciate coming from a community that values food to the point I might even say it’s a love language for us.
Yeah, I don’t know. You guys got lucky. But the food here is honestly disgusting. If you’re like me, and if you like the taste of fresh ingredients, with minimal seasoning, with the emphasis of tasting the natural fresh taste of the food (I am imaging a fat piece of toro and and a fat round hotate sashimi right now), you will be hugely disappointed. This is an island too but they only ways they seem to know how to eat seafood here is to dip in a some batter, fry it or grill it in some think butter, and oftentimes they drench all the food in some thick ultra processed sauces 😩 mayonnaise, ketchup, “brown sauce”…
I have visited both multiple times, never lived in either. I would choose London. I resonate more with British culture. I love how close it is to countries very culturally different. Eurostar goes to four different cities and it’s less stressful than flying. I would say that I preferred the Asian food scene a bit more in New York and the weather is better but I still think having so many places to visit on your doorstep and only 3 hours flight away trumps those two factors. I also love the historical buildings in London. You could probably live there for years and not see every historical building worth visiting.
In my experience the underground is also easier and less smelly than the subway in New York. I do love New York city too but London is more my vibe to live.
Assuming you’re remotely good at what you do and can get hired at any of the (many) higher paying bigtech / fintech companies in NYC, your pay in London will *at best* be half of what it could be in NYC and you’ll probably pay more in taxes. The difference in cost of living will not make up for that. Those saying it will don’t understand how much money there is in tech.
Also, if you value your career, you have waaaaay more opportunities in the states for tech. More interesting / cutting edge work as well.
That being said, I would move to London if I could get US pay and career opportunities there. And the option to spend the winters working remotely from somewhere sunny.
If you can get work visas in the US, move there. You will have to give up on cleanliness though. You can always move to Europe or anywhere else later with your savings from the much much higher american pay. The reverse will be very hard financially.